Theory 1: The proponents of keeping the picture up had it stolen so that they wouldn't lose in court. It will be anonymously returned after the legal case is disposed with.
Theory 2: The proponents of taking down the picture had it stolen because they knew that they wouldn't win in court and were hoping to end the issue
Theory 3: A BHS student or recent graduate removed the picture because he was tired of seeing all those T-shirts proclaiming that "You can't take my Jesus Down", and thought, "Oh yea, watch me!"
Theory 4: The friends of the federal judge had it removed so that she wouldn't have to make a decision that would alienate one side of the community in which she lives.
Theory 5: There was a Multi-county Emergency Communication Anti-terrorism Swat Team Drill the same day. This was a bogus Terrorist Act played by the participants who were just having fun. Ransom note to follow.
Theory 6: This was an inside job. The window was broke and a chair left outside to confuse the investigators. The picture is hid in the ceiling
Theory 7: This was an outside job. Someone just got tired of hearing otherwise intelligent adults carrying on and on about something stupid and thought he'd punish everyone by denying them a continued good time by removing the picture.
Theory 8: This is my favorite. The Resurrection Theory. Guess how this one plays out?
Theory 9: They'll wait three days; put it back on the wall and proclaim a miracle. More money will come flowing-in for the lawyers.
Theory 10: Some weary citizen doesn't care one way or another about the picture; he just got fed up listening to the media everyday when a certain self-righteous member of the Board of Education would just go on and on and on and on.
posted by Gundovald at 8/18/2006 12:49:00 AM
58 Comments:
its in my trunk
I ascribe to Theory number 3..
I think it's time to call Anderson Cooper, maybe even Greta.
Seriously though, I would imagine they can enhance the video and get a better identity.
Taking the picture makes for a good conversation piece, but it doesn't make anything right.
have a good weekend everyone,
Bella Sara
Another embarassment to WV - right up there with the dead cow stuck on the dam
Shockdoc writes :
Theory 11 : He felt betrayed and left of his own accord because he didn't want to be unceremoniously and hastily packed up and sent home in February with MQ.
Shockdoc -- liberty and reason are maintained only through vigilance and courage, unlike the ill-gotten gains sustained by faith in miracles and by the velvet claw of state force.
Yes, it's true, I've been thinking about it. The man with the plan seems to think this is a serious crime. No doubt he understated it. Serious doesn't even come close to describing this vicious and craven act. I think all this nonsense concerning the Ramsey case should be set aside not only locally but nationally while we focus on this business of stealing religious pictures whether in schools or anywhere else. It's downright scarey! It could be the beginning of a trend. It needs to be stopped in its tracks and the sooner the better. Serious crime. Yes, this is it at last. It's coming our way. I think I'll move further back in the hills.
The Bu$h administation has lied us into a devastating war that has claimed hundreds of thousands of innocent lives and also has no connection to terrorist attacks on the United States. They have violated the Constitution and FISA by undertaking surveillance on innocent American citizens WITHOUT a court order. It is a violation of the 1st and 4th Amendments. This same administration has hyped terror alerts and questionable foiled plots in order to keep the citizens constantly ina state of fear of terrorism, when they are in fact the ones inciting terror. The craven, boot-licking local and national media refuses to report on these facts, but instead spends it time reporting on a 10 year old murder case, steroid-using athletes, and the theft of a cheap reprint of 1924 painting that is not Jesus. Those of us with any sense are sick of it.
King's Kid said...
so, what's your point gundy? are you for real? surely you have too much time on your hands. what makes you qualified to offer an opinion either way? Have you ever even met Jesus Christ? a person of your intellect surely would want to meet the Creator of the universe in which they live before they stand before Him on Judgement day, would they not. The simple fact is, regardless of what the school board decides to do, nobody wins. Yes, it is a picture that has deep personal meaning to many, but one also has to question the real "harm" it has supposedly caused to Mr. Sklar, his children, and this substitute teacher ( whom by the way has the opportunity to refuse to teach at Bridgeport High if that picture really "harms" her that much.) I find it interesting that neither of these people would ever have had their 15 minutes of fame if it weren't for this painting. So, maybe they should be thanking the school board that anyone even knows who they are now. (as if anyone really cares). The bottom line is-- everyone of us WILL give an account one day to this God whom our society tries so hard to ignore, and dismiss as fable. He is alive and well, and someday, even you will stand before Him. Pretty sobering thought if you invest any time thinking about it at all.
WOW to the "Kings Kid said ....."
Very good thoughts!
Good morning everyone, and have a good, safe, blessed week!
Bella Sara
To Kings Kid - I am very upset at your comments. You may not meant it to sound the way it sounded to me, but this attitude is what turns non-Christians off and makes it harder to win them to Christ.
I am a born again Christian. Spritually I read a lot of Tim LaHaye and James Dobson. Politicaly I am so far right I make Rush look like a liberal.
I feel the Board of Ed should have removed the picture. And although I disagree with Hal & the sub teacher(I do know Hal personally, but that is not the reason I feel this way)in their beliefs I feel they have legitimite reasons and do not deserve the comments you made. I am not Biblical scholar, but I do not believe Jesus would treat them that way.
I have said this before, but Jesus himself said the 2 Greatest commandments are 1)Love thy neighbor, as the Lord has loved you & 2)Love the Lord and keep his commandments.
What is all the Christians that have been wasting time and money on this. Had done what God told us to do and spread his word.
I have many friends who disagree with me, but at least they do not have the attitude towards these people you do.
I don't know about Gundy's spiritual condition, but we are not to judge.
While I disagree we can have a discussion without calling names and making fun of ones who disagree
GOD BLESS
BUDDY R
gopbuddy: Well said. You have just described the difference between Christianity and churchianity. Christ spoke of in his rebuke of the Pharisees who thought they knew what was right. Jesus called them hypocrites.
Theory 11:
www.ebay.com Item #160006900252
I want to thank whoever removed the picture for performing a civic service to his community. thank you
King's Kid said,
First of all GOP Buddy, I'm not sure I understand your rage. I said nothing which indicated that I was judging anybody by anything more than their actions already clearly scream out! Jesus said in His answer to the scribe who tried to trip Him up by asking Him this question: "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?" "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Matthew 22:36-39. If you are gonna quote what Christ supposedly said, try to get it right, ok? With that being said, NOWHERE in the Bible will you find Christ taking it easy on the religious crowd, just because folks didn't like harsh words. Sometimes the truth hurts! Perhaps you forget about when He drove the moneychangers out of the Temple with a scourge, and overthrew their tables? (See John chapter 2) The whole point of this issue is not really about a picture anyway.... It's about Christians who are very passionate about their Faith wanting to have the right to express it without being told by some liberal lawyer, or the God-hating ACLU that it is offensive. We need to grow up and quit being so stinking sensitive! I'm sure that painting is not the issue, and I'm even more sure that NO ONE who has reached a level of maturity past puberty is HONESTLY OFFENDED, by it. The issue for them is--- they HATE God! PERIOD!!! The ACLU has been trying to trample rights of Christians for many years. How come they never argue cases in favor of Christian causes? ANSWER? THEY HATE GOD! They are "offended" by nativity scenes at Christmas-(maybe that has something to do with the actual display-- 3 wise men and a Virgin. You'd probably be hard pressed to find 3 wise men and a virgin in their whole perverted organization), they are "offended" with the displays of the 10 Commandments, they are "offended" with prayer in schools, they are "offended" by a portrait? Where does it end? What would you recommend we give away next? Any suggestions? Explain to me please how these things are "OFFENSIVE". I know what you're probably gonna say about winning them over-- the old "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" argument... one problem--I'm not trying to catch flies!!!! I'm trying to tell these people that whether they like it or not One day we will all stand before God, and give an account-- this is God's Word, not mine--(See Isaiah 45:22-23, and Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)That's not offensive-- that's the truth of the matter! I simply asked Gundovald if he had ever considered this God before-- If that's offensive I'm guilty, but I will not apologize for speaking the truth! If this offends you buddy, I don't know what else to say, other than try reading Psalm 119:165.
To Kings Kid - First I did not claim to quote the scripture perfect, it was the general idea. Second - Christ CHASED the money changers OUT of the temple. I may be wrong, but nowhere did he make fun of, criticize or put down people who disagreed with him. Third while I agree the ACLU is a God-hating group, they HAVE defended Christian groups.(check a previous post on Gundy's site.)
Fourth - You say your not trying to catch flys. What did Christ say? We are to try and convert the non-Christian. Fifth - When we fight battles like this one we lose ground for the ones that are important.
If the Principal wanted to put it in his office and was made to take it down - then I think they would have a better chance of winning, but to display it where it is, is contrary to what our Country is built on.
This is paraphrased, but Christ said "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasrs".
Think about this - with any special-interest group the goal is to gain power and money. The more you win the more you gain, the more battles you lose the more you lose. Now there is "sometimes" a reason for fighting a losing battle. I personally don't feel this is it.
1)Every attorney, ever court case, several conservative people say they will lose.
2)When they lose the ACLU will make money because their court fees will be paid by the Harrison County Board or the Fund.
3)This will give them more importance.
One last thing I know Hal Sklar, and although I haven't talked to him for awhile, I believe he is sincere and not a pawn of the ACLU. I believe they were only brought in after Hal could not receive what he thought was proper treatment by the Board.
GOD BLESS
GOP BUDDY
to anonymous 8/23/2006 11:31:28 PM
The ACLU HAS argued cases for religious rights. People who support separation of church & state do not hate God. They don't want the government mixed up in religion.
Even within Christianity there are hundreds of different churches and they don't all believe the same thing. No one has a right to force religion on another. Separation of church & state meant to protect religion from being administered by the government. That is why religion is kept out of gov't offices and public institutions like schools - it is not against God, anti religion, etc. it is NEUTRALITY.
Go King's Kid! You're doing a great job, Kid, but I think you're casting your pearls before swine. There's more. Judges are political actors. They change their minds. Actually, they have their minds changed for them. What is law today is not law tomorrow. Have you noticed? A small army of legal geniuses have determined that your case is a loser. They want it to be a loser. Where have I seen that before? Oh, yes, I've seen it many times. The judges (notice I never call them "justices") will determine what the law is in your case. I didn't say it was right. I said that is what will happen. No bout can be won if you don't enter the ring. Your case may be the best case in the world but if the political actors we call judges want to see it another way they will see it another way. This is not a good thing for our country.
King's Kid said,
GOPbuddy,
In answer to your question..."what did Christ say?...." He said in Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Again in Matthew 28:19-20 Christ said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son,and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." That doesn't sound like being selective as to which battles to fight. Remember this we were not the aggressor nor the initiators of this fight! Our job is not to MAKE them believe anything-- we are to TEACH them. What better place to TEACH than in the School system? Also, just because " everybody says something" does not make it fact-- just ask Christopher Columbus about that. I, for one, am glad that he didn't listen to the crowd, and just stay home believing the world was flat. How did he know it was round? He read it in the BIBLE!(See Isaiah 40:22) What a concept! In regards to your paraphrase about rendering to Caesar--- Why not FINISH the verse? Matthew 22:19-21 says, "Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's" Let's not forget that some things still belong unto God! Also noteworthy is the fact that he was talking about tribute money-- not control of people's lives, nor their thought processes. Unfortunately Buddy, The majority is not always right-- in fact, they SELDOM are. It was the majority, after all, who cried "crucify him." So, before we go around putting our collective heads in the sand, and complaining that "we'll probably just lose anyway, so why bother?" why don't we realize that some things ARE WORTH FIGHTING FOR! Especially when WE didn't start the fight. Remember little David-- the giant killer? He was in the minority-- But he was RIGHT! His older brothers thought he should have been home tending sheep-- peacefully co-existing perhaps-- Rodney King....can't we all just get along? But God had other plans for him simply because he knew that it was a worthy cause.( See 1st Samuel chapter 17) This upset a bunch of Philistines, but God won a victory because someone stood up for what was right when that was not the politically expedient thing to do. As for your point about the ACLU making money if they win-- if that happens, it will be money well spent-- fighting for what is right, and they'll have to spend money as well. Also, as far as empowering them-- they have NO power that God doesn't allow them to have, so I'm not worried about that in the least. Most people with any sense of reality already see them for what they really are-- a bunch of rogue lawyers with an axe to grind, and no real basis for their arguments. If not now, when? If not us, who? If not this cause, which?
In closing, Buddy--- God is MUCH bigger than the ACLU or any of their evil cohorts and all the minions of Hell--- Perhaps as soldiers in God's Army, we should get back to the conflict and maybe, just maybe, God will do something special for us too.(See 1st Samuel chapter 14)
BRIDGEPORT, W.V. -- A member of West Virginia's Harrison County Board of Education said he expects the portrait of Jesus that was stolen from Bridgeport High School to be either returned or replaced.
Mike Queen said police think they may know who broke into the school and took the picture last week, two days after the school board voted to use private donations to fight a lawsuit seeking its removal. He believes the suspect is a young ex-student who didn't realize that stealing evidence was a federal offense.
As to the last comment ref., Mike Queen's comment, "didn't realize that stealing evidence was a federal offense." Seek legal advice beyond what Mr Queen offers. "Stealing evidence" of what? Does Queen argue that the picture is evidence of a crime? Then hanging the picture was a crime in his mind?
This is a civil case about an assertion of First Amendment Rights. No one will be going to prison unless it is for contempt of court. Stealing a picture worth $9.99 (yes, I checked) will be of little interest to a Federal prosecutor. Breaking and entering followed by petty theft will be handled as a state matter. More scare tactics is not the answer ...G
King's Kid-
The arrogance of so-called Christians such as yourself is one of the main reasons I now consider myself agnostic. Just because someone has a strong belief in the separation of church and state and freedom of (and from) religion does not make them "anti-religion" or a "God-hater". Actually, by promoting conflict as you do in your last paragraph you are the one promoting hate. You can quote all the scripture you want but the simple fact remains: NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES THE SAME THINGS THAT YOU DO. Besides if "God is MUCH bigger than the ACLU and their evil cohorts" then surely he's even THAT MUCH bigger than a silly picture of a lily-white Jesus that couldn't possibly be what Jesus really looked like as most folks in that region of the world at that time were of African descent.
How about this, let's have the kids spend all day at school praying. And, in the name of equal opportunity I mean all faiths, i.e. Muslims with their rugs out facing East, Buddhist chanting, speaking in tongues, etc. Then in 15 or 20 years when we really lose our technological advantage over the rest of the world because they (the Japanese, Chinese, Russians, et al.) were busy learning science, math, and English while we were busy praying maybe God will save us.
In the future please remember George Carlin's eleventh commandment: Keep thy religion to thyself.
BTW, since when is Mike Queen a spokesman for local law enforcement? What's the procedure, if any, to recall a BOE member? It's the Board of Education not the Board of Religion!
Thanks for listening
As to the others concerned with the state of my soul, please understand that my religious faith does not encumber me with an obligation to worship Mr Sallman's 1941 creation, copy-righted and controlled by the Church of God, as the ticket to my salvation.
There have been over 240 translations of the Bible into English. Whatever version you are relying on is, I'm confidant, the one and true version. And I shall agree to the same when someone else insists on their version. I truly do not have, nor have been blessed with the head to fight a religious war. Understanding the secular world of the narrow confines of constitutional law has been enough for me. But you can understand that as you have a similar difficulty in understanding either.
Be true to your Christian calling and offer prayers for my salvation. In the meantime, send your children to the private schools that offer the religious teachings to your liking. Demand school vouchers. And contemplate what will happen if and when members of some other religion get management positions in the school and swap out this object of your veneration to one that is alien to your religious beliefs. I will still be there to demand that a government school be neutral in matters of satifying the proselytizing lust of the self-righteous.
King's Kid said,
Yeah anonymous, that will teach us! Boy was that ever a profound solution. FYI--- most people of that region, in that time were NOT of African descent. Shows how much you paid attention in Both History and Geography classes, huh? Also, just because you proclaim to be agnostic now doesn't necessarily mean that God doesn't exist. No, I don't think that everyone believes the same way I do--- I never said that--- perhaps reading is not your strong suit either! I'll try to type a little slower since you obviously can't keep up. I'm not advocating anything, as you suggest,other than for God's people to get their heads out of the sand, and quit thinking that if we ignore the enemy, he'll go away, and leave us alone. "Though none go with me, still I will follow. No turning back, no turning back." This is a stanza of an old hymn entitled- I Have Decided To Follow Jesus. If others choose to stay on the sidelines, so be it. I choose to defend the Faith, even if it hairlips the whole crowd. BTW-- I don't need your permission to do so either, nor am I asking for it. Thanks for weighing in though. One last thing anonymous, God can do whatever He pleases, Whenever He pleases, even when what He pleases doesn't please you or me.
Colonel Mustard writes
The drum rolls and the plot thickens:
He will be resurrected or reincarnated, or what have you.....
Offspring of famous and powerful + kidnapping + lots of Feds + general befuddlement + nationwide publicity
= Stockholm Syndrome!
I say our best bet is to check the ID of all suspicious shifty-eyed characters wearing French berets and toting machine guns in the lobby of WesBanco on Johnson Avenue. But you go in first -- it's safer up front. I'll stay behind and deal with the pesky media.
Colonel Mustard
G-
IMHO, the state of your soul is in fine shape. Thanks for the forum. This area has needed someone like you stirring up the s*#@ for eons. You have it exactly right on this issue. Keep it up, brother.
Thanks for listening
King's Kid
Let me get this straight. You believe in a giant man in the sky that controls all things and you have the nerve to insult my intelligence? As you decided to make it a personal attack you prove my claim as to your arrogance.
King's Kid
One more thing. I should have been more precise on the origins of man thing. Mainly, Near East people of that time were of African, Mesopotamian, Indian, and East Asian descent. All of which further proves my original point: Decidedly NOT lily-white. I apologize if I insulted your religious belief in my previous post but I really don't appreciate having my intelligence questioned.
Thanks for listening
GOP BUDDY says - To the agnostic thank you, you made my point to Kings Kid, but they are missing the boat. I will keep praying for him/her(as well as you). Thank you Gundovald.
GOD BLESS
GOP BUDDY
Well, at least this blog is moving along. People are talking. Doesn't seem to be anything going on at Radio Free Clarksburg.
biggymrat
While I agree that all the things you listed are frivolous nothing you mentioned on your list has anything remotely to do with the Bill of Rights, particularly the First Amendment. The thing most people forget when they make the "majority rules" argument is that the Bill of Rights was specifically designed to protect the individual from both the government and, with the addition of the 14th amendment, an overbearing majority. Some folks (lawyer/authors like Akhil Amar) dispute that today but I don't agree.
To GOP BUDDY Thank you and I will accept your prayers
Sign me
Bport Agnostic (now there's a true minority!)
I don't think for a minute that a tiny minority of people was meant to kick the majority around in this country. That's something that turned up in the last century. I don't think the Founding Fathers of this country ever saw the day when lawyers representing a minority of the population would become the oppressors of the majority. Americans are a gentle people for the most part. They let themselves be kicked around. Eventually, they learn that it hurts to get kicked around and they kick back. That's what they're doing here in Harrison county. There could have been better issues than the picture of Jesus Christ. But, who knows, maybe it'll be a start of a trend. There are plenty of things to kick back about around here. I'm at least mildly surprised that they stood up at all.
I do think that founders like Franklin and Jefferson pushed a Bill of Rights precisely to protect the individual (an individual always being a minority) from having ideas they don't agree with shoved down the individual's throat. Biggymrat has it wrong in his/her original post. This is completely about religion and the unconstitutional promotion of religion by a public institution.
Bport Agnostic
Shockdoc, writing under pen name Colonel Mustard, writes :
It is simple. "Bport Agnostic" is correct. The Founding Fathers were not primarily interested in protecting thoughtless institutions of faith from the force of the state apparatus and it's agents. The Founding Fathers knew only too well from their personal experience and readings what established religion would do to the fledgling Republic. They knew that those two goliaths -- state and church -- could fend for themselves. The Founding Fathers were interested in establishing the Constitution to limit federal government activity and establish (both enumerated and unenumerated) inalienable individual rights, amongst which one right would be the protection of the rationale enlightened individual FROM the unwanted establishment of state sponsored religion in his or her life...like,...Ooooh,...say for example, when the state provides drywall in government owned facilities to put up pictures of the spiritual leader.
The Founding Fathers, described as deists, were only nominally Christians for convenience, and had some extremely bitter and uncharitable things to say and write about religion, and would probably identify themselves as agnostics or atheists today.
Colonel Mustard the Bport Atheist -- even more loathed and despised than you two or three Bport agnostics out there.
Amen, er, I mean, Right On, Col Mustard!
My new hero in this is Scott Simons, erstwhile BHS grad and son of our dearly departed weatherman and all around good guy/supporter of the arts Mike. Check out his story on the front page of our local excuse for a paper today. Guys got balls, for sure.
Bport Agnostic
Shockdoc, dressed up as Miss Scarlet, writing as Colonel Plum writes :
[Yawn][Belch][Stretch][crack][scratch,scratch,scratch]
OK, OK, OK. Stop it already.....
[scratch,scratch]
....but tell me again, real slow like, why the government found it necessary to take over our children's education ?
Miss Scarlet and Colonel Mustard -- both in the kitchen with the cereal spoon, frantically poring over the Constitution hoping to find the part about being empowered to set up massive, free and compulsory education programs, since the couple had easily found it outlined and justified in the 'Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto'....
"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ."
George Washington (1789-97)
Happy Monday guys,
I wonder if members of ACLU take a holiday on Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving, or do they all work on those days?
Have a good, safe, blessed, week and remember the families and friends of victims of COMAIR in your prayers.
Bella Sara
I heard that Mr. Sklar was married to a Christian woman - wouldn't they have Christian symbols in their house? So, its OK for his daughter to see them there - but not at school?
Jesus is jewish. Jews recognize him as a great teacher and prophet. I would be proud, as a jewish person, for my daughter to see a picture of someone of her own nationality, who is recognized as the world's most famous teacher over 2000 years ago, proudly displayed in her school. After all, there are no Italian, Polish, or German teacher's pictures displayed!
I feel sorry for his daughter. As a parent myself, I would have NEVER started this argument the summer before she was about to enter the school. You just don't do that to your children.
IT's about money guys!!
Shockdoc writes (without hiding behind Mustard's pith helmet or under Scarlet's apron):
Hey, forget this "being offended by a picture" rigamarole. Offensive stuff I can laugh at or walk by and ignore or dismiss or constructively criticize or, finally, purchase and then tearup. The marriage of state and church terrifies me. 'Terrify', yeah, that's the correct operative word. We can use it in other sentence constructs as applied to enumerated and unenumerated rights (Amendments 1-10, from the Constitution: C-O-N-S-T-I-T-U-T-I-O-N)), like for example :
I am 'terrified' -- not 'offended' -- when the state demands that I get a permission slip to buy a gun.
Or:
I am 'terrified -- not 'offended' -- when the state says they have the power to label me a 'terrorist' or 'enemy combatant' or 'enemy noncombatant' or just an old fashioned 'enemy of the state' and arrest me, let me languish in some type of Gitmo and put me in front of a military tribunal, without a lawyer or a jury of my peers nor the opportunity to cross examine hostile witnesses before an unappealable sentence of death.
Or:
I feel 'terrified' -- not 'offended' -- when I hear that the state is imprisoning journalists for speaking and informing me about the action of my government.
Or:
I feel 'terrified' -- not 'offended' -- when I hear that the state tries to get around the restrictive spirit and letter of legislation by the use of signing statements and secret executive orders.
Or:
I feel 'terrified' -- not 'offended' -- when I hear that the government can sneak and peek and bug my house and telephone without a warrant.
Or:
I feel 'terrified' -- not 'offended' -- when the state restricts my movements in this country by airplane without a permission slip so as to provide the illusion of security; and I also feel 'terrified' -- not 'offended' -- when I the government announces that they are extending restrictions also to the government run road system.
Or:
...and on, and on, and on.
The Founding Father never wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights because they would be 'offended' by anything an unrestrained federal government could conceivably do to the life, liberty, property and pursuit of happiness of rational enlightened individuals who had fought a bloody war of secession from King George. They knew the rugged individual could find innumerable peaceful ways to deal with offensive state action; the Founding Fathers just didn't want to saddle us us with terrifying state action.
The word 'offended' sets up a straw man argument; when we choose the terms of engagement, we can have a real, productive argument.
Anyone else out there terrified about "the picture of Jesus" -- or just mildly offended? Let's see a show of hands, shall we! Atleast we don't need a permission slip for that just yet.
Shockdoc -- liberty and reason are certainly offended, and often terrified, by faith and force.
Shockdoc, that was an excellent piece. I am with you all the way. You are right on the money. These are the things our fellow citizens need to know about. Excellent piece!
Shockdoc,
I want to party with you, dude! And bring along Col Mustard, Miss Scarlet, et al. I will not comment further as that should be the last and definitive word on this topic. Although, something tells me that won't happen.
Bport Agnostic
PS to the anonymous questioning Mr Sklar's wife's religion, WHAT BUSINESS IS IT OF YOURS?
PPS The Washington quote above is paraphrased and taken out of context. The actual quote reads, "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ." He was speaking to Delaware Indian chiefs and the words "American schools" are nowhere to be found. It's possible he meant this but I think it's stretching things a bit. Especially as this was during the Revolution and we didn't have "American" schools yet.
Shockdoc writes:
Beware statistics, damn statistics, graphs that do not show the origin, butchered quotations, quotations taken out of context.....and certainly any promises of a good time from fast women* or the state.
It is interesting how search engines can track down and contextualize original and unabridged quotations going back atleast as far as the Founding Fathers from even the shortest snippet provided.
*except Miss Scarlet
Shockdoc -- although there is no nexus, force and faith have historically always tried to camoflauge themselves and pretend to complement and supplement liberty and reason.
The idea that Christianity is under attack in America is a church myth. People give more money to churches every time one of those campaigns is launched.
The Bible is written and about a people under attack....2000 years ago. Christians were strung up, fed to lions, isolated, etc. A lot of what is written in there from the disciples was directed toward growing a cohesive community that could protect itself, stay safe, and withstand the brutal onslaught of majority rule.
Christians never got over it. It's the biggest religion in the world right now, and various sources claim the US to be somewhere between 75%-89% Christian. On top of that, the US government right now is extremely indoctrinated, gives federal money to faith based groups, etc. Christian Coalition/Moral Majority Ralph Reed practically lived in the White House during the Reagan era, and his tradition remains with the current Bush, who told has said he believes he was chosen by God.
Guess what, folks! Christianity won! Woo Hoo!
So, now it's time to move on, and leave the past behind in which it really was a religion under assault. A lot of Christians never got over that martyr, at war, everybody-is-trying-to-kill us time. To a lot of Christian philosophy, the religion just doesn't make any sense unless it is as depicted in the Bible...under assault.
It's time the religion moved on, and got to the next level, recognizing that it's war is really over, so it's people can be benevolent, less paranoid, self confident and kind.
The founding fathers separated government from endorsing religion to protect religion. Surely it's not lost on anyone how much the GOP has wrapped itself in God and nationalism and then embarrassed both by being corrupt, caught in lies, and fool hardy with American lives and money in Iraq. People should be doing everything in their power to get their religion away from this government's people, because it's becoming too easy to confuse political leaders with religious leaders....and the political leaders are corrupt as hell on one hand, but spouting their righteousness all the while.
Well, at least the last paragraph is right on the money. There's not a righteous man in the lot. They're a long, long way from being Christians. They're the easiest pack of hypocritical liars in the world to criticize from the perspective of their being Christians. Christians are not running the show in this movie. Not by a long shot. The only people who would buy the idea that these people are Christians are people who don't know what following Christ is all about. It's not that hard to find out what it means to follow Christ. It's in the book. But, as I understand it, most people don't read the book. They wait for someone else to tell them what the book says. I'm not talking about interpretations of what is said in the book or twisted meanings attached by people who want it to say what they want it to say. I'm saying that it's pretty clear and plain what is said in the book. I'm thinking particularly about the four gospels. Then, too, you might throw in the rest of the new testament but not the book of revelations. That last book can be interpreted zillions of different ways and, no doubt, has been so interpreted.
I also think that that it was not the so-called Christians but another group of people who claimed, and still claims, to be the victims of the world. I have never seen Christians portraying themselves as victims.
Yes, there are many phonies in this religion. But you can find phonies in any religion.
Many movies and television programs that feature movies of one kind or another have beat up on Christians during the past thirty years or more. Christians have been portrayed as bad people of one kind or another. A priest sexually molests some kid and priests in general are portrayed in the reportage as sexual perverts and the Catholic Church is viewed as the protector of sexual perverts in the priesthood. And God help you if you're a pastor that is well known and you take a fall! The mainstream media will jump on that man and condemn him to the pit of hell. Jimmy Swaggert comes to mind. Nobody in the media ever mentions the idea that this man may have led untold numbers of people to Christ and fallen himself. "And the good is oft interred with their bones."
Oh, you definitely cheated. This means you have lost credibility. I put a post in here not long ago and I see it's not here. So, this means what? Only certain posts allowed? Where is it that I'm living? Oh, now I remember.
“The Bible is the best book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries that I have seen.”
John Adams (1797-1801)
“The Bible is the best book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries that I have seen.”
John Adams (1797-1801)
“The Bible is the best book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries that I have seen.”
John Adams (1797-1801)
OOPS. Sorry! I didn't mean to leave that last comment three times.
Actually, Old Bean, the Bible is not philosophy. I don't know who this knuckle-dragger John Adams is but he apparently didn't have too much on the cap. Maybe he was a roving minstrel or something but the Bible is doctrinaire. It's about doctrine.
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809)
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
The John Adams quote above is completely taken out of context as well. Sheesh, for a bunch of religious conservatives you people certainly are liberal when quoting the founding fathers. Please get it right from now on or simply don't post the quotes. It's really not that hard to check them from non-biased sources online.
Bport Agnostic
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
I love quotes from our founding fathers. Here's another good one...
"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789
I wonder if our founding fathers thought they founded the country on the Christian religion? Perhaps John Adams has something to say on this issue...
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religous opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
[John Adams, 1797-05-27, Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the US and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. Treaties and Other International Acts of America, ed. Hunter Miller]
I wonder if our founding fathers thought they founded the country on the Christian religion? Perhaps John Adams has something to say on this issue...
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religous opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
[John Adams, 1797-05-27, Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the US and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. Treaties and Other International Acts of America, ed. Hunter Miller]
To one of the Anonymous voices above - the only comments I have ever deleted were ones which used language that would lower the level of discussion to that of the gutter or where the same comment was repetitively cut and pasted multiple times. Chances are that you made some mistake in entering your comment. Again, I stongly recommend that anyone who chooses to still remain anonymous and make frequent comments avail themselves of the "other" field in the "Leave your comment" box. This allows you to uniquely invent a psuedonym so that other commenters can address you by your invented handle and not confuse your issue with other people also selecting the "anonymous" option. ....G
Gundovald, you're right. I am not much of a poster and not much on the computer. It was my mistake. I didn't do something right and I thought you did me so I was coming after you. I was wrong. Yes, wrong. I know it's hard to believe but it's true. I enjoy this blog. It's a lot of fun. It turns out whatever I thought was not posted was posted after all.
According to your criteria I can see there is no reason for you to not post anything I throw out there. I don't offend people. I have never been asked to leave any gathering.
Soon enough I expect I will be coming out of this telephone booth with my Superman suit on or I will be moving on. So far, it's been fun.
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