Contribute to the Legal Defense of Official Petulance
Since I was emailed this, I assume it is an invitation to publish the same, regardless of my opposition to the notion that a government employee (principal) is expressing his personal religious preference and is attempting to turn it into public policy in a venue where children of all backgrounds are mandated by law to spend part of their life. And neither the Board of Education or the Supervisors have the leadership to remind a subordinate that in the secular world we are all subordinate to the law.
Learning about the First Amendment from a Federal Court can be an expensive choice in advancing one's education. The tuition is excessive and can be learned with less trouble by picking up a few books. The information you need to contribute is on Gundovald's Annex, here. Good Luck and God Bless!
posted by Gundovald at 8/06/2006 05:07:00 PM
24 Comments:
Why doesn’t this guy go to Washington and take the Christian symbols off the frieze of the Federal buildings up there. Why pick on a small community like Harrison county?
Could it be that he does not have the legal skills to go up against the big boys in DC? Now if he won that one we would stand up and take notice,but a little school board like Harrison County? Hell I will donate just to cause the ACLU to spend some of their money too. Thanks for the Address.
Could someone explain how donation to this type of fund would be tax deductable? I may will be, but I don't think it would be right.
To the first Anonymous -Yea, but when the ACLU wins they will get all their money back probably plus some. Also as I've said in past posts I disagree with the ACLU 99.9% of the time. However Hal Sklar is a resident of Bridgeport and has kids that either went to BHS or will be going there. He is of Jewish faith and feels his kids as well as other kids who do not believe in Christ should be forced to look at this picture.
If the picture was in the Principals office, I don't believe it would be a problem.
GOD BLESS
BUDDY
Gundy, on the link you provided to donate $$, Ms. Ralinitis is quoted as saying "This case is not just about Bridgeport High School, the Harrison County School Board, or the portrait of Jesus. It is about our responsibilities as Christians." .... I wonder if fundalmentalists, or extremests, or main stream fanatics believe it is their responsibility to "fight" for their views to be held? I guess the only real difference is that in America we "fight" under the umbrella of Democracy, where at the end of the day we can go home win or loose. However, in some parts of the world the "fight" is under an umbrella of different circumstances, not Democracy. Imagine being in a country where a communist Dictator tells you there is no God, and to believe in one is possible death? or a country where a religous Mullah says you have to act in this manner and pray this way every day of your life... or die. In any case the only winners are the people who live in the Democracy. Where you can, with out fear, stand up for what you believe in. Speak at events and hold ralleys to garner support for your cause... And have the protection of the Bill of Rights, just in case you are in the minority. If a bunch of Christians want to spend their $$ (not our tax $$) to fight this fight, God Bless them. Just don't be upset when the court says "take it down", be encouraged that your children will still have a choice as to what religious influence they want to impress on their children.
Anon #1 You're welcome for the address. The fight would be lost to remove symbols of a religious nature from Public buildings. There have been some cases in recent years where the court has acknowledged some concept of "religious heritage" to knock down arguments for their removal. I'd have to revisit the specific cases to give you more detail. The courts also seem to make a distinction as to what "hat" the government is wearing when evaluating complaints dealing with the relationship between the Church and the State. When the government is wearing the "hat" of an educator with underage children mandated by law to be in their care, the conduct of the government officals is seen differently and more cautiously than if we were all adults roaming around a courthouse.
Anon #2, I have absolutely no idea how this could be tex-empt. Anyone seriously considering taking a deduction should seek the advice of their tax professional.
GOPBUDDY, you may have been right at one time about keeping the picture in his office as not being a problem. I would guess that bridge has since been burned. The trouble with lawsuits is that a legal judgement could negate other options.
Anon #3 The lawsuit will focus on the specific complaint and not on the hundreds of other things the proponents in favor of keeping the picture wish the lawsuit would address. That's just how the courts work. If you sue me because my dog bit you, the judge will not allow my defense to be "well, how many times have you been scratched by someone else's cat and you didn't complain?". So all these other grand issues raised will go unaddressed.
Shockdoc writes:
Oh joy.
[Yawn]
A lawsuit.
[Yawn]
If you think there should be a picture/portrait/caricature of Jesus in the schools, then why should you be bothered if the government takes it's pound of flesh by setting up a marine recruiting station in the church narthex under a picture/portait/caricature of King George -- smiling, of course. Smiling very broadly. Like a Cheshire cat.
If you really cherish an idea or a person or a process or an institution, why in the hell would you ask the government to lend it's support to promote it. Who would have the obscene idea of propping it up on a government drywall ? I would be mortified. It would never occur to me to put any faith in the mindless force of the state to protect something I value.
Does it need to rest on the walls of the state?. Yeah, the same walls paid by forcibly extracting money involuntarily from adults so as to imprison our youth 8 hours per day to learn sex education from state protected school union teachers. Yeah, sure. Great message, huh? If I was 'religious', that's exactly where I would want to put my spiritual leader on display.
Of course the ACLU will win. For g-d's sake, take it down while you have a chance and still have a modicum of dignity left. It's one thing to put your faith in a religion, but you double your chance for trouble when you thoughtlessly continue to put the frontal lobes of your brain cortex 'in neutral' and extend your faith to the state apparatus and agents. Faith and force never deliver the 'goods' nearly as well as liberty and freedom. So, go on -- shake off the trappings of the Dark Ages and kick start your frontal lobe. It's ultimately much more productive and kind of fun to boot.
Be careful when you lie down with the state. You can't trust the state that it is as clean as the driven snow, and you won't know what you'll catch will be treatable. It will likely require more than a just a painful injection, mes amis. Your faith may not protect you as well as a condom or a frontal lobe -- or a wall of separation.
Take the picture down before the state 'helps' you to keep it up.
Shockdoc -- trying to divorce faith and force from liberty and reason in the court of public opinion.
Gundovald-Your comments were rigth on the money. All I meant about putting it in the principals office, was they would have more precedent in thier favor to keep it up.
Shockdoc-Good commnets
GOD BLESS
BUDDY
Chief Justice Warren Berger said that the Constitution does not require complete separation of church and state. It mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance of all religions and forbids hostility toward any.
We could win this one!!
You know what bothers me about the ACLU suit is that it will take money away from these students eventually in some form. These kids stand for hours at Wal-mart and other locations hold fund raisers ect to raise a few bucks for their band trips ect. Now this guy comes in and causes all this money to be spent on Law suits. He should be ashamed.
Go to Washington and fight your fight
with the big boys against religion buddy. Or are you just a Civil rights attorney "Wanna be"?
Who should be ashamed?..... Who's causing people to donate money for a hopeless cause??? I guess it depends on your point of view. In my opinion it's the people who want to violate the law and the US constitution who should be embarrassed. It's amazing how this person is so secure in his position as to case shame on people.
You just described GW!!
I don't think it's a waste of money fellow Bloggers,If you look at some of these opinions closely.
STONE v. GRAHAM
The Establishment Clause does not require that the public sector be insulated from all things which may have a religious [449 U.S. 39, 46] significance or origin.
For a full report on the legal fund set up to keep the picture of Jesus at Bridgeport High School copy and paste this Link. http://www.huntingtonnews.net/editor/060806-queen-editor.html
Shockdoc Doppelganger writes :
Let's set up a Federal Department of Religion. Get your sermons pre-approved. You know. Just so everything is just right -- for the common good. So we don't have all this....this...this...upsettedness.
[Memo to self : Is that even a legitimate word?]
So we can all just get along real nice like. Yeah, that would solve all our problems. Yeah, I feel better already.
Shockdoc Doppelganger -- liberty and reason are not just cute enantiomers of faith and force.
I appreciate Shockdoc, b/c even though he posts anonnymously he puts a name. I wish the others would at least make up a name so we could tell them apart.
I am GOPBUDDY, but not currently at my Computer.
GOD BLESS
BUDDY
The point all concerned seem to be making is that the picture in question is Jesus - which it is not. No pictures of Jesus exist, and the Bible gives very little description of him. One could suppose that the reason is that the Creator, knowing the heart and mind of mankind chose not to give them another excuse for idolatry. One's faith should not be in a picture, a building, a nationality or a government.
The Bible, gives a very clear guideline - Do unto others . . . a simple truth that would prevent offense to others and prevent all controversies. Those who claim to be standing up for Christian principles should start living by them.
It's easier to support the Jesus picture than to look closely at your relationship with God. Because if those who speak strongly in support of it were to look at their relationship with God they would be shown to be humanist. Most of them believe they can fool God by standing strongly in favor of the picture that will then be their penetance to their secular lives. Five hail Mary's a couple a candle's to light and everythings forgiven.
AMEN - To the last to anonymous posts.
GOD BLESS
BUDDY
I personally don't care about the Jesus picture one way or the other,I just donated to the cause because the group had the guts to stand up against the
ACLU.
Well, apparently the ACLU has been demonized for standing up for the constitution. I suppose if you don't mind the fact that this gov't holds US citizens indefinitely without legal representation or that it wiretaps our citizens without warrants then we really don't need a constitution let alone the ACLU.
Each time one of our cultural symbols are busted down, removed, or eradicated in some way--continued erosion of this society is occurring. Removing 10 commandments from courthouse plazas, taking out the "under God" in the pledge of allegiance...what does this possibly accomplish? You want a PC-society based on essentially everyone's nothing? Well, you're gonna get it. Look around you, do you like what you see? Do you like the path it's all headed down? Yeah, the picture of Jesus is unconstitutional as caselaw interprets the Constitution. This is messed up. It doesn't need to be this way; it is damaging to the cultural mores of our society: a Christian majority society whether you like it or not--or, quite frankly, whether you ARE one or not...so, hey: donate to the fund...who knows? they might actually reexamine some of these glass houses and come to some better jucidial conclusions...
Let's get to the real issues of education. This school board is making decisions that truly affect our children and our communities. The new Mountaineer Middle School will not only provide less for our students but will lead to the closing of more of our community schools. Mountaineer Middle is a school built on SBA funds not a levy. The board said the school would not have any frills. By frills they mean only two computer labs instead of the 5 the two schools presently have, smaller sized classrooms (dimensions), basic skills teachers sharing classrooms instead of having their own, most likely teachers will have more students in each of their classes, and there will be an increase in travel time for students. Washington Irving and Lumberport Middle need new facilities. Why didn’t the board decide to build them a new school? It is simple. By building “Mountaineer Middle” the school board can close Adamston and North View. How do any of these decisions make sense? How are any of these decisions good for our students or our communities? This is what the county should be talking about!!!
That is right on the money. Just like Christian cultural mores, when you bust down and fragment the nucleas of a community (like a school) the protons scatter everywhere and all about and none of them end up in the right place. What's left? Nothing. Miss Clarksburg misses the old days of WI, RW & Victory!--crosstown rivalries--when your association w/ a particular school actually meant something. If you want to get scared, go over to the Panhandle and walk the corridors of Jefferson High School. This is what happens when you do away with the workable old and replace it w/ the untenable new...like the superbox stores...just who the hell cares? Look at Bridgeport Senior High. The Superintendent of Schools tried to get Bridgeport to consolidate in the early 90's into a meaningless, ineffectual and mind-numbing behemoth..but Bridgeport's City leadership was too smart to go w/ something like that...they fought it and won. So now, where's a great school? Where do all the parents want their kids to go? Of Course! Bridgeport! Don't folks learn anything from first hand experience? Geez....
pLEASE SUPPORT THE CHRISTIAN JIHAD, GIVE YOUR CASH TO THE LAWYERS AND BUY YOUR WAY INTO HEAVEN. HELP MIKE QUEEN ESTABLISH A STATE SUPPORTED RELIGION AND GIVE HIM A FOOTHOLD WITH THE ELECTORATE. i THINK JC WOULD RATHER BE FEEDING THE POOR. PORTE CRAYON
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